13 ...

Bernini strolls over to them, leaving Michelangelo to continue inspecting of his recently restored masterpieces.

Bernini
These paintings certainly did have a profound effect on future generations of artists. The evidence is there for example, where god appears to be flying through that imaginary hole in the ceiling, and in other places throughout the ceiling panels – this, as they say, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Newkirk
What do you mean, Gian Lorenzo? If this is the tip, where is the rest of the iceberg?

Bernini
I mean that Michelangelo was so advanced in using, as a sculptor, a painter, and perhaps especially as an architect, the idea that one could not only suggest a convincing extension of physical space that recedes away from the viewer, but also that a work of art might extend out toward the viewer, involving him or her physically as a participant in the scene. And he even distorted architectural and sculptural elements in order to further dramatize a visual effect. Think of his David, as a start.

Michelangelo, David, 1501-1504

When you enter the Accademia to see the David, he appears at the end of a long gallery, in a circular space of his own. He is looking to his left. When you enter his circular gallery, and approach him from that direction, his left, you feel that you should look over your shoulder to see what David is so intently studying. Well, of course he is looking at the giant Goliath – at least metaphorically; there is no sculpture of Goliath to see. But there is this sense that you are trespassing between the two, and that you may actually be at risk since your position is between these adversaries. Of course you also know that David's head is about twice normal size, so that passers-by would still see his intense expression if the sculpture had in fact been installed atop the Duomo in Firenze, as was the intention at one time.

This business of distorting and extending spatial considerations is everywhere in Michelangelo's work. It certainly influenced me, and Pablo, here I think is the groundwork for your own experiments. You have seen the staircase of the Laurentian Library as it flows out to meet the visitor, like a gentle cascade.

And in the new sacristy of San Lorenzo, Michelangelo's sculptures for the Medici tombs use the convention of the sacra conversazione to suggest again that, as we enter the centre of the room, we are trespassing between and among participants in a meditative conversation – it's like the uncomfortable space we occupy between David and Goliath. This time, it is Mary and the infant Jesus (along with two attending saints) who are central to the conversation, and the Medici brothers, Lorenzo and Giuliano who "confer" with those central figures.

Michelangelo, Medici Tombs, new sacristy of the church of San Lorenzo, Florence, Italy 

But he did more with that room. The white and grey architectural elements he added to the surface of its walls are like more sculptures. These become fewer and lighter and airier as we look up from the main floor to the dome above. And then he did something quite remarkable. The window, just below the dome, is designed to be narrower at its top than at the bottom. In other words, Michelangelo exaggerated the viewer's sense of perspective to make that window appear to be taller, and the dome higher than it actually is. Pure genius. The room seems higher, but looking up from below, we don't really know why. Forgive me ... I'm going on. 

Newkirk
No, please; I'm enjoying this. Your enthusiasm is infectious. You know, when we were crossing the Piazza san Pietro – your piazza – Michelangelo said something about your having used some of his architectural conventions. What did he mean by that?

Bernini
I think he must have been referring to the balustrade above the colonnade, and the sculptures that stand atop it. This is something that he did decades before I made my piazza in his design for the Campidoglio, the perfect piazza. 

Michelangelo, The Campidoglio, the perfect piazza

The idea is gradually to lighten and dissolve the physical building as it reaches into the heavens. The solidity of earth gives way to the lacework, if you will, of balustrade and the even airier and more heavenward sculptural elements. It's much like the Medici Chapel in that regard. Everything lightens as it extends heavenward. It's a "new" variation of the heavenward stretch of the great Gothic churches.

And you know by the way, that this piazza is in itself a variation of the sacra conversazione. The facades of the three buildings are linked by the design on the pavement - the buildings (and the sculpted figures above the rails) reflect and "speak to" each other. This is one of the most beautiful spaces in Rome. And one more thing before I stop myself ... you must walk behind the Campidoglio when you visit. There you will find the most breath-taking view of the ancient Forum of Rome. Go in the evening – I guarantee that you will be glad you did. But perhaps you know this place?

Newkirk

Yes, I do; and I completely agree. It is a wonderful place.